CNN Special Proves Pastor Manning Right About Obama Men

Tonight, I watched the majority of the CNN "Black in America" series after I swore I wouldn't, because Spice kept calling me to tell me to watch certain segments. I finally decided to watch it and just as I knew they would do, they just discussed the problems within the community, all for July Sweeps mind you, and offered no suggestions, solutions, etc. Helpful? Hell no. That's why I didn't intend to watch that bullshit because it was just another attempt by greedy corporate heads hoping to profit off of our misery and woe. Don't agree? Tell me one thing they offered as a solution to the problems. Tell me one they offered as a suggestion to the problems. Just one.

We've already heard every bit of the information in that bootleg series. Well, let me rephrase that. The information has been out there well before Soledad Obrien decided to package it all up and toss in a few celebrity appearances to add credence. Do you think most of the girls and guys in the hood watched it past the first 30 minutes? I seriously doubt it. They at least knew that they had nothing to gain by tuning in. What's that you say? They did have something to gain? Like what? Hopefully, what this has done is made more people finally face the facts and decide to grab the bull by the horns and do something about it, but trust that was not the intention of the folks at CNN. They were thinking about cash.

Now, to the issue at hand. Several months ago, Pastor James Manning of Atlah Worldwide YouTube infamy, discussed the fact that many of these same Black men chasing behind Obama are not handling their responsibilities where their children or their wives are concerned. Instantly, he was vilified. Now, what do you all have to say? Now that CNN has done nothing but regurgitate the same information? Will you shout from the rooftops that they are lying? That it isn't true? That they are "haters"? Oh, but the information is true my friends. It is true and I know the truth hurts, but pain doesn't make it a lie. 

I talked to Spice at length about this tonight and I'm glad we had the conversation. We haven't had a good discussion about race issues in a while. I'm sure due to her lingering belief that I'm a sellout for not supporting Barack Obama, but I'm glad we talked about these things like we used to do way back in the day. Besides, the truth will finally be accepted by African-Americans about him too. As I said before, I will never turn away the people I love and respect when they come around and utter the words, "Gosh Sugar, you were right about him." I will do my best to not utter "I told you so's", but it will be tough.

Now, let's let Pastor Manning tell us all one more time about these Obama men (see below). Trust that I do not believe that all Black men are miserable failures. I do not and I love my brothers with all of my heart from the pits of my soul, but there is a problem and we can't keep acting as though it doesn't exist. This shit that CNN did...playing us for sweeps revenue is sick, but even at that, the facts remain... --SUGAR

Comments

[sonya]

Sugar, I'm gonna say, "I told you, I told you, I told you!"

I didn't watch that CNN special. When Newsweek did some special feature about black women, I refused to read it. I'm sick of corporations making money from the exploitation of the pathologies of black people.

[josgirl]

Okay, what is the point?
Maybe it's as simple as sex education in black communities is woefully deficient.
Perhaps it's as complex as self esteem among young black people is so low that they can't imagine making more responsible choices.
Or maybe they're desperate to be loved, even if the "love" is fleeting and largely as illusionary as it is illusive.
Would more marriages really solve the problems plaguing black America?
Why would anyone assume that these marriages were destined to succeed?
What would happen if they weren't?
Children would be born in wedlock, only to become children of divorce.
Step-children with half-brothers and sisters, step-brothers and sisters are no more "legitimate" than children born out of wedlock with different fathers.
Nobody talks about the divorce rate and the numbers of non-black children of broken homes whose numbers have to be just as daunting.
So a pregnant Barack Obama mama gets married and has a child, while a pregnant Jesse Jackson mama does not get married and has a child.
Is Barack Obama better off because his parents married or because his grandparents had the means to provide support?
Blaming black men for the conditions that exist that cause the "problem" that has been defined to excuse the very conditions that cause the "problem" in the first place is just another step in the villification of black men that exacerbates the "problem."
Bullshit ain't nothing but chewed up grass, but nobody would choose to stand around in bullshit in the middle of a meadow if they knew they could avoid it by simply stepping to the side.
In other words, maybe the black community is not suffering because not enough people get married before they have children, maybe black people don't get married before they have children because their communities are suffering.

[SUGAR]

"...maybe black people don't get married before they have children because their communities are suffering."

Josgirl, if only it were that simple. Poor African-Americans aren't the only ones having children out of wedlock. So, it's not just about suffering communities. There are sooooooo many problems to the entire equation, many of which I've written about here over the past year and a half. It's the combination of a lack of education (even that is not squarely our blame) about relationships, finances, the importance of education. I could go on and on. The divorce rate in the Black community has been discussed ad nauseum as well. Also right here at this site. The information is out there for all to see. My concern is, the majority of people who actually sat through all four hours of that CNN special are those of us who are more educated. I'm willing to bet everything I own on that. Many African-Americans thought it was going to be a cheerleading event that talked about how much things have gotten better, namely in light of Barack Obama's "success"; but that wouldn't have been good for sweeps at CNN....

[SUGAR]

And, one more thing josgirl. People have the right to do as they please, not get married and such. But, there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for a man to not take care of his children. ABSOLUTELY none. If the woman can keep the child and struggle to provide and not leave the child on the side of the road, why can't they do the same? Again, this is not just happening among poor African-Americans. It is an EPIDEMIC this baring children and leaving them, in this community and I'm sick and tired of it.

[ea]

I agree with both of you, josgirl and SUGAR.

Just going to point out that the so-called nuclear family is a human invention, just like any other cultural entity. There is no inherent rightness or wrongness to it. These, too, are determined culturally. Throughout the history of humanity, there have been variations of maternal and paternal responsibilities.

[SUGAR]

ea, I get your point completely, but this is the problem. We aren't talking about couples choosing to have a baby and not get married. The special from CNN and so many other reports, surveys and such talk about Black men who have DESERTED their children. I'm not talking about women who say they are fine with the man sticking them with the responsibility. The issue at hand is this rampant tendency by so many Black men to have children and then run off. I'm not suggesting that children born of those situations can't be successful, fruitful individuals. Far from it, but I don't know how anybody could argue that it is better for a child to be yearning after their other parent all of their LIVES, always carrying around that feeling of neglect, abandonment and worthlessness. There is nothing fine with that.

[josgirl]

First of all, let me apologize.
I was angry when I wrote that, not at you, but at all the recent finger-pointing and blame shifting I see happenning in light of Barack Obama's candidacy.
It's gotten to the point of piling on, imo.
With the crime and incarceration rate, the lack of educational opportunities, the number underfunded social programs, the imbalance in the unemployment rate, etc., it just seems unfair to me to concentrate on this aspect of the overall problem as a quick fix to everything else.
As far as fathers in the home, I had one of each.
A natural father who left and a step-father who wouldn't.
Given the abuse I sufferered at my step-father's hands, it's hard for me to get worked up about the notion that kids are better off with a man in the house.
I just think the problems black Americans face are far more complex than a CNN special, a Barack Obama Father's Day speech or a Pastor Manning sermon seem willing to consider.

[SUGAR]

josgirl, and you don't owe me an apology. :) We are merely having a discussion about one of my favorite topics--some of the greatest that God made. African-Americans. I wouldn't trade this skin, these lips, these hips, this attitude (lol), none of it, for anything in this world, but we have a lot of work to do and I want for things to be better for us. I want for us to want better for ourselves. We are on the same page about that as we have been about many other things. :)

Also trust that I am in no way shape or form of the mindset that a piece of man is better than no man at all. That's why I'm not married now. lmao I don't believe in that and I detest abuse. I'm preparing to apply to grad school and I just decided today to make that one of the topics in my writing sample. I don't know you from Adam, but if the spirit and strength you exude over the ether is any indication of the type of person you are, then you are somebody we should all look up to.

I was telling Spice last night that at the heart of all of our problems. Just the heart mind you. Is the lack of education. Education is not valued by our community as a whole anymore because how in the hell can a kid in the mean streets of oh say Baltimore, feel excited about it when they get back to school on the first day and there's no air conditioning or the infrastructure is still falling down. Just like it had been at the end of the previous school year. Mice are everywhere. How can they be excited about it?! Oh sister, I could talk about this for hours and hours on end! I work for an education association and I taught for two years. One in Baltimore and one in D.C. I don't have any thoughts of having all of the answers, but I've seen so much that makes me so sad.

Anyway, let me wrap this up. I could write pages and pages about this and I need to stay on the task at hand. NObama.

[ea]

Re: "...feeling of neglect, abandonment and worthlessness..."

This would only exist if there were some expectation that the male parent would be any significant part of the child's life. In these United States (and other parts of the world), I believe this is the extant societal paradigm. So, query:

Change the paradigm? Change male parental behaviour? Change something else?

Maybe part of the problem is a combination of some of your points and some of josgirl's points. In the U.S.A., there has been a decision made that fathers have some responsibility for the financial support of their offspring. But if the men are unemployed, how are they going to pay child support? Is there any substantive or symbolic difference to a child who doesn't know his or her father whether money comes from him or from the state?

Did the CNN special actually have any credible statistics that indicate Black males desert their children at higher rates than non-Black males?

Is there some "vicious cycle" in which the lack of a parental male role model leads to more young men not having any notion of what it is to be responsible for anything, much less a child? If one suggests that answer to this question is the affirmative, does that mean that women are inadequate, or better, incomplete as roles models for male children?

Prior to the Civil Rights Era when there where separate but thriving communities in which the teachers and the doctors and the business owners and the mayor, etc. were all Coloured folk, were two-parent household more common? Were women better off in terms of their own rights and choices? Did the Civil Rights Movement hurt Black families?

While there are societal factors involved, it still comes down to individual choice on the part of the male parent. Do you think Black men take advantage of the stereotype of the irresponsible, ne'er-do-well stud to be irresponsible? If this stereotype existed for non-Blacks, would other non-Black men behave in the same manner to the same degree because they have societal "cover"?

[Deb]

Hey Everybody!

Sugar...I'm glad you decided to watch it so we could talk about it! I'm posting about it myself which includes a lot of this. Sorry! I just think there’s another conversation to be had about this “special.”

Listen, I thought it would be just what it was. I didn't expect it'd be helpful or offer any solutions - at least not in the way you mean. It WAS helpful and DID offer some solutions though, If you can filter out the noise while watching us, watching them, watching us, there were many unintended ( I’m sure) benefits for us in the “special.”

josgirl...you said: "Perhaps it's as complex as self esteem ...Or maybe they're desperate to be loved..." I think it's both/and, not either or. I'm no shrink, but I believe our PTSD (in our case, Post Traumatic Slavery Disorder) is no less prevalent or debilitating to the souls and minds of our people as that suffered by returning war veterans or even – elephants as it turns out! Yes I said elephants! (Sugar, that’s why this DTV thing is bad, free boob tube CAN, at times, be instructive! :-)

I watched to see if they got that, if they cared to get it - if we get that or care to get it. The answer in both cases is no. For all their questions and portrayals of dysfunction and Black participants’ responses to them (shaming and blaming self-hatred abounded), it seems not many people really get it, or care to get it - which brings me back to the elephants.

20/20 did a segment tonight on elephants suffering PTSD. Here’s the link: http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5446027 And if, as Stossel says, “It may change the way you look at elephants,” then why is it, that the same circumstances and effects manifested in the Black community don’t change the way whites and even some Blacks look at the Black community? Here’s a link to “Elephant Breakdown,” an essay by Gay Bradshaw, director of The Kerulos Center (she was featured in the segment so I looked her up) http://www.elephants.com/media/Elephant_breakdown_2005.pdf. She gets it. I challenge you to read the essay and NOT find the distinct similarities.

It gave stark confirmation of the damage wrought by this consumptive- read privileged - society (into which we’ve bought hook, line and sinker) on our community. I thought I was losing my damn mind watching the piece about paying 4th graders for good grades!

Okay, I get the incentive thing. And I applaud this educated, young Black brother with all the alphabets behind his name, who came from a crack-infested environment, trying to at least find a solution (there’s some pathology for you – having a whole family of crack dealers would make one more inclined to understand the financial benefits of incentives, no?), but, am I the only one concerned how this little, Black 4th grade boy has already equated his self-worth with that dollar bill? Or the damaging effects of not being good enough and helpless because not even his little money could help keep them in their home? I'm not mad at money, but isn't there something terribly askew here?

In all the proud moments, I still saw pain. What with us being a "post-racial" nation and all - thanks to the Changeling World Traveler, I wanted to see just how they would treat being "Black in America."

ea…you said, “Just going to point out that the so-called nuclear family is a human invention, just like any other cultural entity. There is no inherent rightness or wrongness to it. These, too, are determined culturally.” I agree, except that SOMEONE ELSE'S CULTURE has informed what OUR nuclear families are supposed to look like.

Sugar…I respectfully disagree that, “The issue at hand is this rampant tendency by so many Black men to have children and then run off. “ Men don’t “have children,” women do. This takes us full circle to josgirl’s earlier comments about “loving the one you’re with.” I think the rampant tendency is a symptom of much deeper problems - problems rarely, if ever, addressed about, or within our community in any substantive way. Our lives are still just their "stories." Unless and until whites and Blacks begin to deal with causation, the "symptoms" will continue to destroy our communities.

You said, “… but I don't know how anybody could argue that it is better for a child to be yearning after their other parent all of their LIVES, always carrying around that feeling of neglect, abandonment and worthlessness. There is nothing fine with that.”

I could see how you'd feel that way. A lot of people do. But again, I’m with josgirl on this one. My own personal “nuclear family” experience has taught me that unless that other parent stands whole in who they are (and considering our PTSD, many do not, phenomenal financial success notwithstanding) those feelings you noted can be just as destructive in a two-parent home.

[Deb]

Sugar...I tell you! I hear that SC in you, all the time!

You said: "Also trust that I am in no way shape or form of the mindset that a piece of man is better than no man at all."

My mother told me exactly that (her mother told her the same) when I came to her with concerns about my marriage (long, long complicated story). That's what I mean about this PTSD thing in my earlier comment. Many of us don't even have the language of psychlogical health and then we pass it on down, either intentionally or unintentionally, and the cycle of self-neglect and often self-destructive behavior continues.

She couldn't understand what I was talking about. She said, "He doesn't beat you, he worships the ground you walk on, he gives you and those boys all you need and whatever you want. What are you complaining about??" Which of course, reinforced the "wrong idea" that there was something wrong with me just because I felt he didn't "get" who I really was and because my sons look more like me than him, them either - in the context of this society.

I strongly identified with the sister in the segment on the interracial couple. Only difference is, it's not taking her 27 1/2 years to "get it." I suspect she possesses a whole lot less of "something's wrong with me" than I did at the same year-mark of marriage. I don't care what Chris Rock says, "Something New" is never simply that, especially between Blacks and whites. I know that - now.

Like you, I'm taking my old ass back to school. I'm going to grad school at Georgetown in the Fall (provided one of these damn, postage-stamp rentals in DC comes through soon - I'll know later today). A monumental undertaking to be sure, but one I should have done a long time ago. But I didn't have the language of health, the self-esteem 30 years ago. Oh I talked a good game, but behind the words, there was a whole 'nother woman.

I don't think education has lost its value in our community. I just think these kids see, as you pointed out, the hypocrisy in everybody telling them how important getting an education is, yet that importance does not flow to the quality of the education they're receiving.

You said..."Anyway, let me wrap this up. I could write pages and pages about this and I need to stay on the task at hand. NObama."

As we talked about before Sugar, NObama is dangerously integral to all of this. Since he's chosen NOT to address the disparities with which most of us live as he "brushes himself off," it will get sadder before it gets better.

I just want to say ditto on your comments to josgirl. I get that same spirit from her comments. And I want to thank you for this place where we can have real conversations about real things.

[josgirl]

Sugar, thank you for your kind words.
Though I never had children, if I had a daughter I could only hope she had the kind of strength, conviction, courage and character you exhibit by staking your well considered position and sticking to your beliefs no matter what.
All that and your wonderfully wicked sense of humor makes you special, indeed.
Your family must be very proud of you, whether they agree with you or not.
I am and I do.
Mostly.
Since we're just chewing the fat here, let me say I agree with ea's point that marriage is a social construct and an artificial and arbitrary one at that.
Even in the Bible, the traditional nuclear family hardly exists.
From Lot's daughters procreating with their father, to Tamar's seduction of her father-in-law by posing as a prostitute in order to secure a birthright for her child, to Naomi and Ruth's subterfuge in order to have a child, to David and Solomon's multiple wives and the Queen of Sheba's trek through the desert to seduce a king (at least that's how I read it) non-"traditional" partnerships proliferate in the Bible.
I haven’t even mentioned Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Leah, Rachel and Jacob, Pharaohs, or concubines and we haven’t even gotten near the New Testament yet.
Not to blaspheme, but even Jesus was born into a non-traditional family.
No matter how many admonitions, warnings and punishments against “fornication and adultery” were issued, humans have consistently pushed back against the forced “mate for life” principle.
Then there are the other family structures of history; dynasties, harems, clans, tribes, etc., each with its own social dynamics.
There is no reason to assume that human evolution sprung from ancient 2 parent, 2.5 children, suburban-style familial units, especially since it’s hard to find correlating evidence in nature.
Humans likely evolved much like other mammalian species, with groups of females and children forming villages for protection and efficiency while nomadic males fought each other for the right to mate with and live among them.
Early human societies were probably influenced by observance of nature’s other developed societies, bees, lions, etc.
There is evidence that some of these early, relatively matriarchal societies are responsible for the invention of farming, pottery, bread and beer.
Tribal communities often separate men and women to some degree or other, often with boys removed from the women and children at puberty or some other arbitrarily determined point to live with the men until manhood and/or marriage.
It seems to me, the notion that today’s “traditional” marriage is the only or even best way to build an efficient society is simply what is imposed upon us all and encouraged by our capitalistic institutions for their benefit and not necessarily ours.
As long as these social concepts are developed by the powers-that-be to advance and protect their advantage over "the people," under the guise of being what’s good for "the people," those "people" will continue to accept or reject those concepts as they see fit,on an individual basis, no matter how much the powers insist or from where they claim to derive their authority.
Now, mind you, these are merely my opinions, based solely on what I’ve been able to teach myself through independent study, observation and osmosis.
That and Animal Planet and the History Channel. :)
However, it is my opinion that the crap Obama, CNN and others are pushing is to promote what’s best for industry and capitalism, not necessarily what’s best for the people they’re trying to exploit.

[Deb]

Sugar...I guess you can tell I'm pretty full on this topic as well. That's why I had to break up the comments. But I promie, I'm done after this.

ea...I think your dead on here regarding the existence of this extant societal paradigm. I don't see the paradigm changing any time soon, but as I said earlier, I do see a possible change in male parental behavior if we change the way we look at the whole picture.

You said: "Is there any substantive or symbolic difference to a child who doesn't know his or her father whether money comes from him or from the state?" Good question, but it's answer is not a simple yes or no. I think there's a substantive, not symbolic difference to a child who doesn't know his/her father, but where the money comes from has little, if anything to do with it.

And my answer to your other question about the "vicious cycle" is also yes. But that doesn't mean women are inadequate role models for male children, just different - with different sensibilities (a reason a woman president would have been a great thing!). The noted paradigm however, requires that the socially acceptable, dyed-in-the-wool sensibilities of "men" be different than those under which most women operate.

CNN didn't give comparative statistics because that's not what this "special" was about (even though I like Soledad O'Brien). Like Suugar said, for the network, it was about money and opportunism.

Because I truly believe slavery, Jim Crow AND the Civil Rights movement all had some notable and very detrimental effects on the Black family, I think individual choice of both the male and female parent has taken a huge beating and is less effective than we might all wish.

You asked: "If this stereotype existed for non-Blacks, would other non-Black men behave in the same manner to the same degree because they have societal "cover?" They do, behave in the same manner, to the same degree - it's just nobody holds them up to public scutiny due to that societal cover. Thanks for your thought-provoking questions.

Sugar...again, thanks for this space. I'll keep my comments shorter from now on!

[SUGAR]

Gosh, you guys have left me so much to respond to I don't even know where to begin.

I will start with this. I'm sort of an unconventional Christian. I consider myself Born-again, and while I do have a deep faith, I also have a lot of questions. I'm not some judgemental, Bible in my handbag at all times holy roller, but I do try to keep my faith in mind at all times. The issue of family constructs included.

I understand that history, including religious history, is peppered with instances of "non-traditional" and not quite nuclear families, but all three of the major world religions order marriage before sex. Children only come from having sex...and of course in-vitro, etc. You know what I mean. Now, I have been sexually active, so I don't even begin to damn anybody to hell for something that I've been guilty of myself. I don't get into that, but I think that marriage being the proper way in all of the three major world religions is very telling.

Staying on the original topic of children and absentee fathers. Again, not two adults who decided to have a child and not get married, but rather two people who had sex, a child happened and they either decide as a couple to keep it and the dad runs off, or she decides to singularly keep it and the man bows out. That's what I was originally addressing and that's what I'll try to stay to in this response.

I've never had a child before, so I can only speak from second hand experiences, but I don't think there's a woman alive who would prefer to struggle with children alone than with a partner. I understand that there are women who choose to have babies alone, but even the majority of those women resorted to that option because they didn't have any other options. By options, I don't mean they couldn't find men. I mean they couldn't find men they wanted to be with. Suitable suitors.

I understand that there are men living in homes who are no good. Not helping out at all and the woman would be better left alone.

But, for an educated, financially secure, physically healthy man to decide to not be involved the life of his child/children is unacceptable and we'd be fooling ourselves if we tried to blame his decision solely or even greatly on slavery. We all know that there are white men who do it as well, so can we blame their failure as fathers on slavery as well? No.

The bottom line is this. In the instance of able-bodied men who CHOOSE to not be involved in their child/childrens' lives, it's a simple matter of supply and demand which I've talked about a great length here last year.

I know very well that slavery has caused a number on us in many aspects where generational problems occur, but none of us in this discussion has ever picked any cotton with an overseer watching us work. The Black family unit was probably its strongest just a few decades after slavery ended because we knew that we had to rely on one another and men did what they had to do to provide for their families. Now, you mean to tell me that the men of today. Who are descendants of those strong Black men who had been whipped down and stomped while they tried to keep their families together, picked up bad habits, but not that strength and desire to keep their families together? I'm not buying it.

The supply and demand problem is this. So many men know that they are far out-numbered by women and they are taking advantage of that fact. Period. I mean outnumbered as in the number of them who are alive and available to black women. I've also discussed here last year how so many black mothers coddle their sons for the sake of trying to make things easy for them, thus creating horribly weak boys who will grow up to become horribly weak men.

I've pondered all of this stuff already and there have been great discussions. This is not a new period of enlightenment for me.

There are issues from slavery and civil rights that we need to deal with, but a lot of the present day problems are also present day creations. That's the fact that we all need to face and deal with that head on. Then maybe we can make some real progress. Check out my posts about marriage and the mama problem. Also, trust that these few posts are not my sole ideas about these problems. Sometimes, I just get tired of thinking about it all:

Marriage: The Other Kryptonite?:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/05/marriage_the_ot.html

Marriage: Not What It's Cracked Up to Be?:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/01/marriage_not_wh.html

Real Love, Not Fly By Night Venturings:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/10/real-love-not-f.html

Oprah: NOT the Savior of Black America:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/01/oprah_not_the_s.html

Blacks and Education: Oil and Water?:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/05/blacks_and_educ.html

National Dropout Summit:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/05/national_dropou.html

The M Factor:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2006/11/the_m_factor.html

Ride or Die Chick or Sista With Some Sense?:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/06/ride_or_die_chi.html

These are but a few of the "lengthy" discussions I've already had about so many of these things. Anyway, I'm sure my response isn't very coherent, but I hope this clears up my position. Ask any questions you may have and gracias for offering your own insight, thoughts and opinions.

[Sugar]

Oh, I forgot about this one that goes with the "Blacks and Education" and "National Dropout Summit" posts:

Until Education is Embraced, Blacks Will Always Be Left Behind:

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/sugar_n_spicea_meeting_pl/2007/05/until_education.html

[untilthelastdogdies]

Sugar! I'm cryin' here...these thoughts are so provocative and I'm convinced that real HOPE lies herein...where people such as yourself lay this shit on the line sister!

One observation about the religious angle..."but I think that marriage being the proper way in all of the three major world religions is very telling."

I agree from the angle of what may be the optimum for the child, but the feminist in me (I'm I'm by no means a radical one) also knows that the history of organized religion, male dominated, has always valued the virginity/chastidy of the female ...as a commodity! That's been their primary motivation, IMO, for
the " no sex before marriage" doctrine. It's more a matter of insuring the offspring's legitimacy, than any moral compass or true concern for a child's welfare. Of course, i could be full of shit, but that's the way I see it. it's always been a man's world, but some progress has been made, just as in the black community.

Not a perfect picture, but people, such as those here, will get our ass to the promised land some day! Meanwhile, the Moneychangers in the Temple (who could that be Barry?) will keep on doing business. I think it's extremely Christian of us to keep calling them on it...in the true sense of the word!

All true profits speak truth to power and point out corruption and hypocrisy. It's just what they do... which is why.they are not politicians!

[SUGAR]

untilthelastdogdies, I'll be honest, the sex before marriage thing is just ONE of the questions I have about religion and I try to comfort myself with the notion that it is this way in these religions because of exactly what you said, so that the offspring of any couple can have a more wholesome life.

I truly believe that people should live however they want to live, but it's not fair when children get caught up in the crossfire and that's what happens all too often. Children are our future. If we keep getting more and more comfortable with the idea of giving these guys a pass on not taking care of their children, we are only widening the crack that's already in the foundation of the Black community.

Believe me, the women who are having these children bare responsibiity in this problem as well. I'm not even attempting to act like we are innocent in all of this, but when you've had one kid with a guy who proves himself a no-count, why go back and have one, two or three more with him???! I know that the heart doesn't work the way we need for it to work, helping us to avoid some of these horrific cycles of madness, but sometimes its like these women don't even try to avoid these situations and that's not going to help end this problem either.

[Deb]

Sugar...You said: "...we'd be fooling ourselves if we tried to blame his decision solely or even greatly on slavery. We all know that there are white men who do it as well, so can we blame their failure as fathers on slavery as well? No."

We've been fooling ourselves because we haven't even addressed that causation - which is why we keep getting the same results.

Woundedness, as a result of ANY trauma never acknowledged or substantively addressed, produces all kinds of socially "unacceptable" behavior - no matter the source. Slavery is the trauma I chose to address because we were discussing Black folks.

How this society can so readily accept the existence and detrimental effects of other unchecked traumatic events as it relates to moving forward, yet ignore one of the most horrific traumas inflicted on an entire race of people seems quite a bit of cherry-picking.

While I certainly agree the type of trauma may be different for white men, it still produces the same result.

Not until men (and scores of women surprisingly) finally acknowledged the very real existence and soul-robbing effects of Battered Woman Syndrome, did women affected get any real help. It was slow in coming mainly because of the preconceived notions about what is "acceptable" in a marriage. The same for victims, male and female, of sexual abuse. It's all trauma visited upon the psyche that needs to learn how to heal. But you can't fix what you don't acknowledge.

Am I saying trauma is the only causation? No. Am saying there are no irresponsible out there? No. But I doubt most people were born irresponsible. How we are socialized - or not - plays a huge role in the people we end up being.

[josgirl]

Sugar,
I went back and read most of the posts you listed, though not all the comments.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense that you feel things deeply and are so affected by them that you are often left frustrated.
That's not a bad thing at all, in my opinion, the world needs your passion, but it can tend to wear a sister out, so to speak.
I know it might sometimes feel like a burden, but then most blessings do at times.
You can handle it as long as you take a moment from time to time to appreciate it for the gift that it is.

My only reason for bringing up religion was to point out how artificial I believe traditional societal marriage dictates to be.
Rather than go into the history of religious ruling authority and its being co-opted by military-industrial tyrants often only to consolidate power to the few over the many, I will concede the point that organized religion promotes and mandates marriage before children.
Even though it is interesting to note that most dynastic rulers are thought to be ordained by God and have authority over the military and industry, and democracy simply eliminates the "Middle Man."
All that being said, my question to you is, are children really better off in 2 parent families or is there something to be said for extended families and communally shared responsibility?
This whole question of social responsibility is part of what attracts me so to HRC as president.
Her "It Takes A Village" overview of society seems to me to be the most practical and enlightened way to address what ails us all.
I think many black men find the institution of marriage to be just that, institutional; restrictive and confining, and when the so-called freedom America is supposed to afford its citizens seems to itself be an illusion, rebellion from further bondage is to be expected.
Then there's the fear of failure that tends to keep some black men from jumping into commitments of any kind.
Society expects so much from men that often those who see their prospects as being limited pretend not to care and refuse to even try.
There's an article over on BAR by a young married man wrestling with those very questions about living up to the responsibilities of fatherhood.
These are not valid excuses of any sort, mind you, but it's important that we not only consider all sides, but realize that we face a many-headed monster of diverse and complex problems that defy our quick fix, sound bite mentality.
That's why I'll get around to watching Black in America later rather than sooner, they'll replay it ad nauseum (they always do) and I can use some more time to try to get my mind right enough not to throw something at the tv.
And lastly, I know you're aware of studies that show that black fathers are more likely to be involved in their children's lives than other ethnic groups.
That's the problem with experts and statistics, you can find ones to back up any position you want to take.

And if my impressions of you are off-base, forgive me.

[SUGAR]

Deb, we aren't the only people who have had a trauma inflicted upon them. Really think about this. If the Black family was indeed at its strongest just a few decades after slavery ended, what happened to cause the growing gap we see now? I believe--and this is only what I believe--the manipulations and games that were played in bringing about desegregation are what caused a lot of the generational problems we see today. Not slavery...

josgirl, you kind of have me right as in I feel very passionately about things, but I don't let anything wear me out. lol Trust me. Also, I'm from a small town in the South. A two-parent household USUALLY includes extended community involvement, not in lieu of. I'm sure you know that Hillary's "it takes a village" overview is not originally her view and in fact is the way many African tribes go about the business of raising children. In the South, you could especially find this in practice among African-Americans back in the day and although to a lesser extent at present due to a watering down of traditions through generational shifts, it is still evident.

"I think many black men find the institution of marriage to be just that, institutional; restrictive and confining, and when the so-called freedom America is supposed to afford its citizens seems to itself be an illusion, rebellion from further bondage is to be expected."

Well, the only thing I can tell any man who feels like that is to keep it moving right the fuck on past me because they give up far less in a marriage, in my own opinion, with kids than a woman on any given day. We women feel our own anxieties about marriage. Do men think that all women are just dying to get married with nary a thought about losing her own freedom and independence? If so, somebody had better let them know the real deal. I have a side gig in the wedding industry and I've seen women boo-hoo crying after the vows have been shared, obviously having slight panic attacks at the overwhelming reality of it all. Not second thoughts. Just anxiety. As I said, people can live however they feel, but all black men aren't running scared from marriage, so to those who are, I suggest a few sessions on somebody's couch to work that out because it is by no means the norm.

"Then there's the fear of failure that tends to keep some black men from jumping into commitments of any kind."

I'm sure any man has a fear of failing, so again, the brothers get no pass from me where this is concerned. Sorry. lol I'm just not buying it. We've all heard the stories about how so many white men straight up kill themselves when their businesses and such fail, so a fear of failure is not limited to black men.

We have to love and support our brothers, but a crutch I will not lend. I won't do it. Black women have had their own humongous burden to carry for decades now as well and we aren't whining and running scared. We are pulling ourselves up by the stiletto straps and getting it done. Brothers need to do the same.

[josgirl]

Heh, heh, heh.
Never thought you'd be overwhelmed by your emotions and passions, Sugar, just trying to empathize a bit.
I ain't worried about you, chile.
Not arguing with you, either.
And of course I'm aware of the origins of the village concept, growing out of tribal African traditions, but HRC's adoption of it is illuminating to me as far as her worldview is concerned.
If you get a moment, and are so inclined, I found an interesting site about family dynamics in America.
There are multiple pages dealing with a variety of aspects as they relate to different ethnic groups.
Don't know who these people are who compiled it, or for what purpose, but the info is thought provoking.

http://family.jrank.org/pages/1730/United-States.html

And lastly, I did catch most of that CNN series and you know what stood out to me most?
The lady who said she had to take a cab and a bus to buy a tomato.
That's just sad, and more indicative of the depth of problems black communities face than anything else I saw.

P.S. The fear of success is far more debilitating than the fear of failure.

[SUGAR]

josgirl, I will definitely check that site out. Thanks for sharing. I didn't even see the part about the woman and the grocery store, but I can imagine. Pretty pitiful right? And, point well taken about the fear of success...

[Deb]

Sugar...Sorry for the late reply. I've been out-of-pocket for a little while trying to work out the kinks of this move!

You said: "Deb, we aren't the only people who have had a trauma inflicted upon them."

I absolutely agree (and this is only what I think as well), however, as we look at the traumas inflicted on many other groups of people, there are many variables to consider as to why or how one group is more or less affected than another. How they came to the trauma, under what conditions was the trauma inflicted, what assistance/familial support was received after the trauma had been inflicted, etc.

"If the Black family was indeed at its strongest just a few decades after slavery ended, what happened to cause the growing gap we see now? I believe--and this is only what I believe--the manipulations and games that were played in bringing about desegregation are what caused a lot of the generational problems we see today. Not slavery..."

I still believe it is a both/and situation. I totally agree. The manipulations and games played to bring about desegregation absolutely contibuted to changing the fabric of the insular, closely-steeped-in-cultural-conditions Black family - and that of other previously oppressed groups as well (except they took shit from them, they just took us and THEN took shit from us! Oh, they took the Japanese too, but they paid them with "I'm sorry."). But I digress.

Just because we were at our strongest just a few decades after slavery ended does not mean there was no trauma IMHO. From that first, "in the boat/on the boat" experience, to Barry today, psychological trauma has shaped, and continues to shape the lens through which many of us view our lives - fertile ground for the games and manipulations.

Just look at the Black support for this man. All of these people aren't stupid. But many sure are still wanting and needing this Black president, searching for some self-esteem through him - kind of like, "Half a Black man's better than no Black man at all." :-)

I hate to hear kids still saying, "I want to be somebody when I grow up." They're already "somebody!!" But still today, that's the language being conveyed - "You are nobody until you are __________." You fill in the blank. Again, all in the name of finding some self-esteem.

My journey through this life has taken me from an either/or, to a both/and existence, offering me a clearer picture of what's happening with us and how I can help. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I keep trying. For me, there is no other alternative.

[SUGAR]

Deb, I didn't even address the move last time! First, congratulations on school!! :) We should get together sometime when you get here and get settled. Two Carolina girls! :) Shoot me an email when you get settled and let me know when you'd like to get together and I'll be there.

I agree with each and everything you said in that comment. I know we've are still suffering from the trauma of it all. I know we are and everytime I think about the whole travesty it makes me angry and sad at the same time.

You know, the part you wrote about black kids saying they want to be somebody and self esteem is kind of why I'm so hard on perceptions of brothers and why so many of them seem to run from marriage and committment for so long. I think by making excuses for them, we are saying that they are weak and inept and I don't see them that way at all. I see black men as strong and capable of doing anything they desire to do. At least, that's the only one I'll accept as a husband. lol So, I get a little agitated when we try to rationalize why they don't do what they are supposed to do.

Deb, josgirl and anybody else reading this. We do have to keep trying and thinking and pondering and talking. That's the only way we'll reach even a simple solution. I believe that one day we'll find it.

[Deb]

Sugar...Thanks! Girl, I'm telling you, this move is workin' my last nerve! All of the rentals fell through simply because I get the "Reading is Fundamental" thing even though some DC realtors and landlords think most of us don't. But I will not be deterred! I don't know when I'll be settled but I'll be up there in about a week, a get-together sounds great!

We're sad and angry together Sugar. And I'm not making excuses for anybody really I'm not, I just know some of us have good, strong feelings of self-esteem, but a lot of don't and the reasons why need to be substantively addressed.

Seeing Black men as strong and capable of accomplishing anything they desire is a good thing! But what I think is most important is how they see themselves. We can love 'em up, hold 'em up, talk 'em up all we dare to, but until they see themselves as you see them, change will be a long time coming.

You, on the other hand my sister, seem way ahead of the game. You know what you will and won't accept, you know who you are and what you bring to the table! AND - You're young enough to make that work for you! That's a lethal and empowering mix! :-)

Many of my sisters are nowhere near that kind of enlightened understanding of self, I don't care how many degrees, high-powered jobs or material wealth they may have.

Don't ever stop getting "agitated" - it can be quite useful when skillfully aimed! :-) My suggestion to us all is to work on our aim - each and every day, dissecting the lessons of the misfires so we can reposition and hit the damn bullseye the next time.

Like you, I believe that as long as we keep trying and thinking and pondering and talking, we'll have that "lightbulb" moment that'll propel us toward a solution one day.

I'll email you once I get up there and I'm holding you to that get-together!